When a fighter gets hurt, I know he’s hurt. I saw the punch land I know how badly he’s hurt. 9 times of ten.
Michael Griffin
Allan Cerf: How, why, and when did you get into boxing refereeing?
A I’ve been boxing pretty much my whole life. Most of my family boxed. I had an amateur career. I was on that Canadian Squad that was going nowhere – the Moscow Olympics were canceled. Most of the guys had started to look at turning pro. The writing was on the wall that no one was going. I had that eye injury when I was younger that prevented me from being licensed in a lot of places.
I had an opportunity and I was in university – so I moved on. But I stayed involved (in boxing). There was a Hall of Fame referee, Guy Jutras, who had refereed some of my brother’s fights and some of my fights that we’d known since my amateur days. He was also an insurance broker and I had some businesses that were insured with his firm. I used to go by his offices and he became a friend and mentor.
When I was in my thirties, boxing was a passion and I knew would be involved in it, one way or the other. I wasn’t sure in what capacity. Jutras asked If I’d thought of being an official. I said I had no real interest in it. (Michael chuckles.) I’m going to be 66 in a month and (Jutras) was about 60 and he said, “there is really nobody coming up to replace me and I think you’d be a good one.” He actually twisted my arm in a way. We went to the gym and he and I worked on mechanics. In the old-school way I was really mentored into reffing. (Guy Jutras) spoke on my behalf to the commission. He said, “This guy doesn’t have any amateur experience, but I don’t think he needs it. He knows his way around the ring.”
I was never an amateur referee. I started as a pro. It was very traditional- sort of way of the old masons and the old cabinet-makers. I just worked with the master. He (Jutras) mentored me into the sport. You get the benefit of his years of experience…he was a pro fighter, he was a judge, he was a referee.
Allan: What weight did you fight at?
Michael Griffin: I started at about 130 pounds and I fought up to middleweight, 160 pounds.
Allan: Were you a quick fighter? A powerful fighter? What was your best punch?
Michael Griffin: I would say I was compared in those days to Matt Franklin, style-wise, who became Mathew Saad Muhammad. I’d like to think he got hit a little more than me! I don’t believe I was a big puncher; I was a decent puncher, especially with my right hand. There was no real ‘tell,’ it came quick. That was the dangerous punch. I had a good straight right.
Allan: You and Kostya Tszyu.
Michael Griffin: (Chuckles) That’s right. Alexis Arguello. A few guys that had a good straight right- he was the guy I kind of fashioned mine after.
Allan: You’re what I would call a “non-interventionist” referee. I’m making this term up. I don’t see unnecessary breaks of action; I don’t see a long speech about the most minor, unintentional thing. I don’t see ridiculous timeouts. Often I see the refs stop the fight, walk “fighter B” to the corner, and spend 30 seconds repairing a glove. Fighter A was on the verge of a knockout, but because of these long, intrusive delays, fighter B is able to make it out of the round. You stay out of the way of the action more than any referee in the sport. You intervene only when it’s necessary.
Instead of being an activist ref, why did you choose this style of only intervening when necessary?
Michael Griffin: (Thoughtful.) I think it comes from being a fighter. It becomes a real sticking point for fighters. The worst thing to feel when you’re in a fight is that the third guy is giving or taking an edge. I think there’s a memo of authority: the more times you involve yourself, your capacity to control the fighters and have their respect is diminished…by all those interventions. A fight has a natural speed, a natural ebb and flow. Everything you do is because you’re not part of action. You should be adjusting – even the speed of your own movements. It should reflect what they’ve (the fighters) created. You shouldn’t be juxtaposed to what’s happening the fight. You know if the fight is moving very fast, you’re moving very slowly. Just that contrast brings attention to yourself. You should be almost unnoticeable. If you match the tempo of the fight with your movement, you’re not noticed in there.
It’s a contest. Our job is really simple. It’s to not let it become unfair. As a boxing referee this is a scrap, right?
Allan: Right.
Michael Griffin: As a boxing referee you’re not in there as a policing element to sanction a guy for this or that move. You want no one to go outside the rules to get an advantage. By the same token, you’re not nit-picking.
I tell the fighters in the dressing room, “I’m going to talk to you.” But I don’t want their attention. I don’t want them to stop fighting, to take the focus off. Quite often when I give a warning, say for a low blow, I’m giving the warning for the recipient of the low blow. Not the guy who threw it. I might say, “Hey Allan, that was low.” I’m just telling your opponent that I saw it. That’s all. I don’t want him (the fighter who received a low blow) to think I wasn’t aware that punch was a little low. It was a non-consequential blow, it was not intentionally low. It has no real bearing on the outcome of the contest. I’m aware – just keep fighting. Inserting yourself comes from the idea that you’re there to catch people in rule-breaking.
There’s a discussion going on right now that I’m on the outside of, I think….
Allan: I didn’t hear that critical point. There’s a discussion about what?
Michael Griffin: There’s a discussion in boxing among certain bodies about using the word ‘stop.’ I think it originated in Nevada. Guys saying stop rather than ‘break.’ I think this is a mistake. ‘Stop’ requires boxers to stop what they’re doing and turn to pay attention to the referee. It’s exactly what you don’t want to happen. ‘Break’ was introduced a long time ago. You just want them to step back and keep fighting. There’s no reason for an interaction with the official. You take a step back. You’re free to fight again. You don’t have to wait for my command to box. My primary responsibility is to make sure nobody gets in too deep. It’s got to be fair. You don’t want someone going outside the rules to gain an advantage. By the same token – it’s a fight.
Allan: It’s not a tea party.
Michael Griffin: …And if a guy’s left hook tangles around the back of his (the opponent’s) head… He wasn’t trying to hold him. He missed the hook – it went around the back of his head. There’s no reason to warn him for holding. You know that wasn’t his intention. If you have experience you know how these things unfold. (Michael’s next point is very important and though I’ve watched boxing closely for years, I didn’t really understand it until a day later.)
Michael Griffin: If you leave guys held together for too long inside, there’s an idea, “well but there’s a hand free, he’s about to punch.” Yes, but if he’s punching (during holding) somebody’s punching and hitting. In that situation – two guys holding with one hand and punching with the other, you’re asking for a foul. Somebody’s going to push the other, guy, wrestle with him – use his head – you have to do something in that situation. All you do is ask them to separate. Nothing else. The action continues, they’re able to do that on their own. So – I have seen some examples of over-officiating.
One thing I say to young guys (Michael means young referees) “If you want to be known, all you have to do is screw up. Don’t worry, you’ll be known. They’ll put your mistaken on slow motion, all weekend, on every sports channel, so you can be really known for it.”
Allan: For the rest of your life. (Laughter.)
Michael Griffin: If you really want to work again… no one notices you. One thing I’ve heard which is a great compliment for me is… I did Katie Taylor and Amanda Serrano in New York, and many people told me “Oh I didn’t know you were the referee.” Which is the ultimate compliment for an official, right?”
Allan: I wanted to ask about subjective stuff. Say you’re refereeing a championship bout and fighter A deliberately fouls b. If fighter B is fouled, do you, as a ref, decide he has to take a five-minute break? Does he get to decide?
Michael Griffin: That’s an excellent question. That’s a gray area. A lot of it’s subjective, right? You’re ascertaining was it intentional? …Difficult to do sometimes, right? Was it intentionally low? Was it serious? The application of the rules and this is where we talk about reffing…We’re not police officers and our application is what makes the fight fair or unfair. It’s how you apply the rules and you’ve got a lot of leeway. …A fighter goes down…. you’re asking him “so you’re okay now?” He’s entitled to up to five minutes…I’ve never had a case where a guy took five minutes – or close. You don’t want it to be disadvantageous to the fighter who was fouled. By the same token, you don’t want him to milk it either. You mentioned Joshua-Ruiz. There was an incident in round 3 when Anthony gets up. I’m not a big guy for the extended count for the special walking. When a fighter gets hurt, I know he’s hurt. I saw the punch land I know how badly he’s hurt. 9 times of ten, I know if he’s going to get up or not. So the idea of extending a count to illustrate he doesn’t have proper motor skills doesn’t make sense to me. I could make him stand on one foot, touch his nose. At that point, I’m just proving to the people in the cheap seats that he’s still hurt. I know he’s not okay after an 8-count. So what happened to Anthony – going back to your question about the low blow – in the final knock down of that fight, Anthony wasn’t hit. Nothing hit him, he went down on his own. That was basically a knee. Andy threw a lot, nothing really landed clean. He spit out his mouthpiece. He’s entitled to a knee. It’s a power dynamic. Anthony knows who I am, relative to who he is. You’ve got a sold-out Madison Square Garden and nobody paid to see Mike Griffin. I know what’ he’s (Joshua is doing.) He’s bringing me to the corner to get McCracken (then part of Joshua’s team) to wash the mouthpiece. Anthony needs time, which I don’t fault him for at all. His job is to win that fight. When he was in the corner, I was saying to him “this is not a break. Are you ready to fight?”
Allan: I remember you yelled “are you ready to box?”
Michael Griffin: Before the fight I said to both him and Andy, if you go down, at the end of the count, I’m going to ask you one question. I don’t want you to talk or nod. I want you to put your hands up, pick them up and show me your ready to go. If you remain with your hands by your side, I’m going to take that as an indication you’re unable to continue and I’m going to stop the contest. He knew clearly what he was doing.
Allan: What did he (Joshua) say when you told him that before the fight, did he agree?
Michael Griffin: He understood completely because if you watch the two knockdowns in the third round and one prior to that (in the 7th) his hands come up right away.
(Michael Griffin now addresses comments around the second time Joshua was floored in the third round and suggestions he gave Joshua extra time).
The truth is when he went down in the 3rd round, we were inside ten seconds. There was no chance he could get hit again.
Michael Griffin then addresses the significance of Joshua putting his hands up following the second knockdown in the 3rd round.
We’ve already had a big communication between us. He’s a hurt fighter but he’s cognizant of where he is, what he’s supposed to do, and he’s remembering a conversation we had an hour ago in his dressing room (in pre-fight instructions). Obviously, he was in no condition to fight but it didn’t matter to me because there was a one-minute break coming and he wasn’t getting hit again.
You know, there’s a rule that I despise. If a fighter’s down during the three-minute period of a round and he rises, I still administer the eight count, because it’s mandatory. And then I have to order the fighters to resume for the bell to ring which I have a problem with. I think it’s eventually going to hang a referee with that rule. Imagine I bring them together (after a knock down when the round is technically over). Andy knew he had this guy and if he came firing out of the corner – he (Joshua) would have been knocked out. You’d have a huge controversy. And if I stop the fight then, it means I stopped the fight in the rest period. For me the bell should ring when count gets to 8 and the guy is standing up. (Rather than the technicality of starting a round which in terms of time is already over.)
Allan: Now that you’ve shed light on it in this way it illustrates you have to make very quick subjective decisions. It’s almost like driving. You have to make instantaneous decisions. Except there’s a career riding on it.
Michael Griffin: I think all those things invite controversy
Allan: Michael, one thing I hate is when fighter’s spit the bit. Some referees make big deal of stopping the fight, cleaning the bit (mouthpiece). If they did it once or twice what would be your reaction?
Michael Griffin: I think at some point you’d have to take some sort of action. I think you have to be very careful. (Michael tells an incredible tale of a winning fighter, Danny Green, spitting his mouthpiece out multiple times and then, changing mouthpieces! Green later had 50 stitches in his mouth. Topping all, Green’s opponent Krzystof Wlodarczyk, stopped Green in the 11th round. Michael says it was obviously not a custom mouthpiece but you’re stuck dealing with it – it’s what he showed up with.)
Michael observed a winning fighter was losing the bit and chose not to penalize him. Unfortunately for Green, it didn’t matter anyway. (Green vs. Wldarczyk is well worth watching on YouTube.) More, great judgment from boxing’s best.
Michael Griffin: In the Joshua fight, his mouthpiece came out intentionally. He would get it back at the first lull in the action. To me a knockdown is not a lull in the action – it’s the height of the action. He needs to get into a clinch or purchase space between him and Andy – and then I’ll give him his mouthpiece back.
Allan: Floyd Mayweather, a fantastic fighter got aw3ay with some things in the same way Michael Jordan got away with some things in the NBA. In particular, he threw forearms – his opponent’s neck was the target. Michael points out he didn’t ref a Floyd fight but adds:
Michael Griffin: I have been involved in similar situations with Canelo Alvarez, Bernard Hopkins, and Vladimir Klitschko. (Allan laughs.)
Michael Griffin: As a referee Floyd doesn’t hold a special status. There’s always in a sense, personal things. Maybe there’s a demeanor that appeals to you more than the other guy. For whatever reason, his ‘file’ you like better than the other guy. There’s two guys in there. I may know this guy’s story – but I’m sure the other guy’s story is just as compelling. My job is to react to the reaction in front of me. Neither guy is anybody to me once that happens. So, Floyd’s elbow in a guy’s throat is no more appealing than some six-round fighters elbowing throats. In the ring, it doesn’t matter who it is.
Allan: Good!
Michael Griffin: I’ve had that question at pre-fight meetings. “This guy does this or that – how many times are you going to let him get away with it?” …And this coming from the opponent’s camp at a fighter meeting.
Michael now makes a critical point about biases – biases that are glaring among too many refs and judges today. He explains in terms of how he addresses pre-fight concerns by camps about “elbows, mouthpiece issues,” etc.
Michael Griffin: I’m doing the fight on say “June 25th.” I’ll do what I should do when it happens. Any idea I have, even about Floyd using his elbow – if I bring that in the ring with me, it’s a bias. I’ll give you an example of Bernard (Hopkins) “Bernard’s a dirty fighter, Bernard, he does this, he gets away with that…” That’s not important to me. I’m going to call the fight I’m in. If you bring that bias, maybe that’s the one time Bernard is (the one) getting fouled! What you’re supposed to do is see what happens and then respond adequately to what’s happening. They cease to be ‘guys.’ I admire them all, have great respect. But once I get in there, there, they’re doing their job, I’m doing mine. The respect you get from fighters – it comes from them respecting you’re there, doing your job. It doesn’t matter your name, who sold tickets, who’s supposed to win, it makes no difference. Joshua-Ruiz… Joshua was there to showcase his talent against a last-minute substitute. It doesn’t matter to me. I’m going to call the action as it happens. When you allow guys to go outside the rules, you lose control pretty fast. The opponent doesn’t care that it’s Floyd. Marcus Maidana doesn’t care if it’s Floyd. Any preconception you bring is a bias.
Allan: Regarding jurisdictions. Say the New York jurisdiction – do they have different rules regarding a mouthpiece to say – the state of Texas?
Michael Griffin: There are obviously different commissions. Whether it’s a WBC, or WBA fight, if it’s sanctioned by whoever, whatever the belt… The ultimate authority is the local authority. Yes. They can have influence even on when fights are stopped… as you say the protocols for things like knockdowns. Extended counts. I don’t agree with extended counts. Your taking advantage away from one guy and giving it to the other. It’s also an inability to decide. You’re buying time for your own decision.
Allan: Are you in favor of a Universal Commission where there’s one set of rules for all 50 states and Canada?
Michael Griffin: The ABC does that. The association of boxing commissions. Every title fight is ABC rules, sort of the unified rules. Only distinctions is maybe protocols on whether it’s a five second or ten second warning to the referee at the end of the round …do you (the Ref) pick up the scorecards or does someone else? I’m not going to try and adjust for the place that we’re at.
Allan (amazed) I thought you had to.
Michael Griffin: You kind of do, but I don’t. They’re subjective, right? If someone says “I want you to do your count like this,” I’m doing this thirty years! That’s my count. Maybe you’d better get someone else then, because that’s the way I do it. You’re supposed to be reactive in there. It’s instinct, intuition, and your reaction. Imposing these other measures, they’re involving you more in the action than necessary.
Allan: That’s what people like. Keep doing it. I’m going to jump to Editor John Raspanti’s questions, but first I want to ask you about Artur Beterbiev. How awesome is his power? You’ve been two feet away from him.
Michael Griffin: (Chuckles) There’s only a few. Adonis Stephenson had a different style. He was probably the hardest punching light heavyweight – there have been a lot of them. Beterbiev is different. He’s a very punishing guy. You’re at that level and you’ve heard 30 times be careful about Beterbiev, he can really punch, and everybody thinks “I’ve heard that before.” You can see in the first round, he’s such a punishing puncher, you can see an attitudinal change when he (Beterbiev’s opponent) gets hit. It’s like “oh, this is what they meant.” He’s a guy that makes guys want to quit. They start off – Marcus Browne, a lot of confidence…he’s faster. Eventually, he gets to them. Incredible power. He throws every shot with a bad intention and they all hurt.
Allan: John (Editor maxboxing.com) asks, what’s the best venue you’ve worked in?
Michael Griffin: MSG, it’s a different feeling. I’ve done a couple at MSG. A sold-out building in New York is kind of a big deal. I did Cotto vs. Sergion Martinez. I remember before I went up the stairs thinking if this is the last one I do, it was a pretty good run.
Allan: John (our Editor) was curious if you had a favorite fighter when you were growing up?
Michael Griffin: I had a couple. The guy I liked the best when I was starting was Ray Robinson…when I grew up. It was before my time…I studied all of those. Roberto Duran. When young guys start to fight, I say if you want to watch, look at old films, I think Roberto Duran is probably the guy you should be looking at.
Allan: He was a consummate fighter as you say, not just a slugger.
Michael Griffin: Right. His foot work and balance were next level.
Allan: Final question. John asks about Naoya Inoue. You’ve seen him up close and personal. How good is he in the all-time scheme of things, if you’re allowed to have an opinion about something like that?
Michael Griffin: I am I think (allowed to have an opinion). I think he’s the best in the game right now. He’s already had a Hall of Fame career. Tell you a funny story. The first one I did was Hernandez. Inoue was 19 years old. I went to Tokyo and I was concerned, this kid is 19, he shouldn’t be fighting 12 rounds. Why are you putting this kid with six pro fights and he’s fighting Hernandez…who had (multiple) title defenses. I was concerned. The worst place for a referee to be is in the ring in a mismatch. It’s the referee’s job to protect a fighter but he shouldn’t be doing it alone! I thought maybe Hernandez is going to kill this kid. Hernandez was being trained by Jeff Fenech from Australia. Fenech said “you have to put pressure on this kid; you’ve got to open up – and he did. All he did was get hurt. He went down again (in the sixth round) and he could have continued. From that first meeting, this guy has done nothing but impress. In his sixth pro fight he beat a world champion, a very capable world champion. There’s a lot of firepower. You know, there’s an element of danger you can see when you’re in there. You realize ooh – somebody’s going. All these shots are big. You’re in there with a guy 122 pounds and it feels more dangerous than being in there with two heavyweights. I heard Floyd say he has to come here to America…he’s not looking (Inoue) for legitimacy. He’s the legitimate pound-for-pound best in the world. I understand them wanting him to come over and he’s been there twice. You can throw Terrence Crawford and now Usyk belongs in that list. I think right now he (Inoue) is the best.
Allan: It’s been a great interview, Michael. Thank you very much.
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